It's what I do too, except that I feed mine normally with 20g flour, so if I am building a two-stage levain the following morning, I'll scale up accordingly. And I normally feed mine in the morning, so it represents an extra feeding whenever I am planning to bake with it.
andrew what jars do you like to use for your levain/starter? i like that yours seem to have an easy plastic lid and no rim to make scraping it out easier.
Great explanation on how a young starter works. I recently read Tartine and wondered why he preferred the young starter to a mature starter- this explains it
I have fondest childhood memories of salt-rising bread. My dad and his mother and brothers were both fans. One bakery in Kalamazoo, MI, produced excellent salt-rising bread, the favorite choice for morning toast. I remember discussions over why other bakeries couldn't produce salt-rising as good as Jake's. Mom refused to eat the bread or join the discussions, but dad's family thought it was the best. Jake's is gone and I haven't seen salt-rising on any of my visits there, nor have I ever seen it in other places I've lived.
Is salt-rising a version of sourdough or it its own variety. Any chance I could make it in Piedmont North Carolina?
Salt-rising bread is not "sourdough" in the traditional sense, though it does involve wild microbes (Clostridium bacteria). I'm sure you could make it, Bill, but I'm no expert on how!
I find that fermentation is extended with a young levain which matures in the dough so taste is enhanced. Robertson advocates the two step levain and using the second one young as well but like you I prefer a stiffer starter as the ph remains higher and the use period is longer. The most interesting info here was your thoughts on removing rye from the levain - as bit my starters have 20% whole milled rye and they triple in size over 12 hours - I’ll look at no rye next time :-)
Like I mentioned, a young levain will extend the final fermentation when used at the same inoculation rate as a mature one, because there is less yeast in it. I haven’t found any downside to using a higher amount to overcome that.
In many recipes in his new book, Richard Hart calls for a young levain that is fermented for only 45 minutes !! I did bake one loaf but don't have my notes here to remember inoculation or fementation times. It was good, not great.
There is a fascinating book titled "Levains" by Marc Dewalque. It's all in French but the many charts and graphs are easy to read - similar to your chart here. I borrowed the book from my Senegalese baker friend but have yet to find a copy to purchase.
A question about rye: you say that you avoid using rye-fed levains for doughs that get retarded in the fridge because of enzyme activity. Are these enzymes in the flour itself or produced by yeast/bacteria that are found especially in rye-fed cultures? If the former, would you recommend avoiding using rye flour (say, 10%) in sourdoughs that get cold proofed?
I honestly don't know the answer to this question. Rye has a reputation for promoting enzymatic activity, but I'm not sure I can cite an explanation how it could *cause* it beyond what happens in the flour itself. My inclination is to say that it's simply the higher percentage of rye in the final dough that is the problem, not that rye in a levain starts a cascade of enzymatic activity in the final dough. Plenty of bakers use rye flour in retarded loaves (me included); my take is that you want to restrict it to the final dough in order to minimize problems with excessive enzymatic activity during the final proof.
I did a bit of digging and couldn't find any literature on whether there are meaningful differences between either the amount or the types of proteases in wheat vs rye. I *did* find a paper that showed that doughs containing rye flour had higher levels of free amino acids than doughs made just with wheat flour (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.foodres.2022.111614), which maybe points to higher levels of proteolysis, although that might be somewhat confounded by free aa uptake by yeast.
You also seem right in saying that it's the flour itself. This review notes that primary proteolysis is "mainly attributable to endogenous cereal proteases" (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tifs.2008.04.002).
The only method I've found that consistently gives me a predictable rise and a mild flavor is the process in Forkish's Evolution in Bread. It involves a morning, evening, and morning build with a final mix 7-8 hours after that and shaping later that evening. Admittedly it's extra work, but it does for around a workday and is very consistent. Can you explain why that is? It doesn't seem to count as a young levain.
I'd call that approach a simple multiple mature levain method, and it is equivalent to a bakery that refreshes their levain twice daily. I think you could get similar results feeding 1x per day for three days before using one of my approaches; no matter what, your levain is going to be more effective the longer it is held at room temperature before use. (I sort of take that as a given in mine, though I should probably have mentioned it. You won't get the same results as I do if you just pull it out of cold storage and attempt it.)
I have a clarifying question. My starter is almost always entirely rye or partially rye because I love the flavor imparts. Do you avoid doing an overnight proof in cases where you have used a stiff levain containing rye as well, or is it more for the two stage levains (mature or young)?
The "rule" about rye and levains is that it is best avoided when retarding the final dough, no matter the style of levain. It can certainly be done, but you might get better results if you avoid it, as many bakers do. I think you can get similar flavor out of whole wheat, and it will minimize excessive enzymatic activity.
Thank you! I will absolutely try this on my next batch. Would you have the same issue if you used a wheat levain, and had some rye flour in the final dough (say, like 5 to 10%)?
As I mentioned in another comment, the idea is to limit the total amount of rye flour in the final dough, not avoid it entirely, by not using it in the levain. I use rye in many of my doughs, retarded or not. To minimize enzymatic activity, I’ll not use it in the levain.
The explanation for the young levain is really helpful. My sourdoughs sometimes aggravate my acid reflux (womp womp), so I'm always on the lookout for new ways to decrease acidity.
It's what I do too, except that I feed mine normally with 20g flour, so if I am building a two-stage levain the following morning, I'll scale up accordingly. And I normally feed mine in the morning, so it represents an extra feeding whenever I am planning to bake with it.
Very interesting. I’m going to get a pH meter to check out my levains
You don't need one!
I know. But I’m curious! I’m a retired scientist so it’s in my wheelhouse.
In that case: https://www.hannainst.com/bread-and-dough-ph-tester.html
Awesome. Was just about to ask for a recommendation.
andrew what jars do you like to use for your levain/starter? i like that yours seem to have an easy plastic lid and no rim to make scraping it out easier.
They are the Weck 3/4 liter jars (#743), with the plastic replacement lids. I poke two holes in the lid with a pushpin.
Very helpful information. And love the graph!
واقعاً ایده شما عالی وجای تقدیر دارد که در این برهه زمانی که اوضاع تغذیه خیلی نابسامان شده است
Great explanation on how a young starter works. I recently read Tartine and wondered why he preferred the young starter to a mature starter- this explains it
Hi
I have fondest childhood memories of salt-rising bread. My dad and his mother and brothers were both fans. One bakery in Kalamazoo, MI, produced excellent salt-rising bread, the favorite choice for morning toast. I remember discussions over why other bakeries couldn't produce salt-rising as good as Jake's. Mom refused to eat the bread or join the discussions, but dad's family thought it was the best. Jake's is gone and I haven't seen salt-rising on any of my visits there, nor have I ever seen it in other places I've lived.
Is salt-rising a version of sourdough or it its own variety. Any chance I could make it in Piedmont North Carolina?
Bill Strong
Salt-rising bread is not "sourdough" in the traditional sense, though it does involve wild microbes (Clostridium bacteria). I'm sure you could make it, Bill, but I'm no expert on how!
I find that fermentation is extended with a young levain which matures in the dough so taste is enhanced. Robertson advocates the two step levain and using the second one young as well but like you I prefer a stiffer starter as the ph remains higher and the use period is longer. The most interesting info here was your thoughts on removing rye from the levain - as bit my starters have 20% whole milled rye and they triple in size over 12 hours - I’ll look at no rye next time :-)
Like I mentioned, a young levain will extend the final fermentation when used at the same inoculation rate as a mature one, because there is less yeast in it. I haven’t found any downside to using a higher amount to overcome that.
In many recipes in his new book, Richard Hart calls for a young levain that is fermented for only 45 minutes !! I did bake one loaf but don't have my notes here to remember inoculation or fementation times. It was good, not great.
There is a fascinating book titled "Levains" by Marc Dewalque. It's all in French but the many charts and graphs are easy to read - similar to your chart here. I borrowed the book from my Senegalese baker friend but have yet to find a copy to purchase.
It's available online for free! https://levainbio.com/cb/levains/category/chapitres/
A question about rye: you say that you avoid using rye-fed levains for doughs that get retarded in the fridge because of enzyme activity. Are these enzymes in the flour itself or produced by yeast/bacteria that are found especially in rye-fed cultures? If the former, would you recommend avoiding using rye flour (say, 10%) in sourdoughs that get cold proofed?
I honestly don't know the answer to this question. Rye has a reputation for promoting enzymatic activity, but I'm not sure I can cite an explanation how it could *cause* it beyond what happens in the flour itself. My inclination is to say that it's simply the higher percentage of rye in the final dough that is the problem, not that rye in a levain starts a cascade of enzymatic activity in the final dough. Plenty of bakers use rye flour in retarded loaves (me included); my take is that you want to restrict it to the final dough in order to minimize problems with excessive enzymatic activity during the final proof.
I did a bit of digging and couldn't find any literature on whether there are meaningful differences between either the amount or the types of proteases in wheat vs rye. I *did* find a paper that showed that doughs containing rye flour had higher levels of free amino acids than doughs made just with wheat flour (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.foodres.2022.111614), which maybe points to higher levels of proteolysis, although that might be somewhat confounded by free aa uptake by yeast.
You also seem right in saying that it's the flour itself. This review notes that primary proteolysis is "mainly attributable to endogenous cereal proteases" (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.tifs.2008.04.002).
The only method I've found that consistently gives me a predictable rise and a mild flavor is the process in Forkish's Evolution in Bread. It involves a morning, evening, and morning build with a final mix 7-8 hours after that and shaping later that evening. Admittedly it's extra work, but it does for around a workday and is very consistent. Can you explain why that is? It doesn't seem to count as a young levain.
I'd call that approach a simple multiple mature levain method, and it is equivalent to a bakery that refreshes their levain twice daily. I think you could get similar results feeding 1x per day for three days before using one of my approaches; no matter what, your levain is going to be more effective the longer it is held at room temperature before use. (I sort of take that as a given in mine, though I should probably have mentioned it. You won't get the same results as I do if you just pull it out of cold storage and attempt it.)
I have a clarifying question. My starter is almost always entirely rye or partially rye because I love the flavor imparts. Do you avoid doing an overnight proof in cases where you have used a stiff levain containing rye as well, or is it more for the two stage levains (mature or young)?
The "rule" about rye and levains is that it is best avoided when retarding the final dough, no matter the style of levain. It can certainly be done, but you might get better results if you avoid it, as many bakers do. I think you can get similar flavor out of whole wheat, and it will minimize excessive enzymatic activity.
Thank you! I will absolutely try this on my next batch. Would you have the same issue if you used a wheat levain, and had some rye flour in the final dough (say, like 5 to 10%)?
As I mentioned in another comment, the idea is to limit the total amount of rye flour in the final dough, not avoid it entirely, by not using it in the levain. I use rye in many of my doughs, retarded or not. To minimize enzymatic activity, I’ll not use it in the levain.
Perfect. Thanks again.
I just added a bit more to the post to clarify this.
Very useful information for anyone interested in baking bread at home...
The explanation for the young levain is really helpful. My sourdoughs sometimes aggravate my acid reflux (womp womp), so I'm always on the lookout for new ways to decrease acidity.
Super informative. I don't have any additional or insightful comments to make except to say, very interesting!
Fascinating information and super helpful. Thanks a bunch.